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> <channel><title>Comments on: Condorcet and later-no-harm</title> <atom:link href="http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/</link> <description>Vegan cooking, unix tidbits and other minor discoveries</description> <lastBuildDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:32:34 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3</generator> <item><title>By: Brad Beattie</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-579</link> <dc:creator>Brad Beattie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2010 03:43:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-579</guid> <description>This conversation crossed my mind again today. What I&#039;d need to reconsider the benefits of range voting is hole in the following argument.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_criterion#Range_voting&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Range voting has a Nash equilibrium at the Condorcet winner&lt;/a&gt;. By definition, this requires perfect knowledge and strategy for all voters, an unrealistic expectation. Furthermore, if a Condorcet winner exists and is not selected by range voting, some voters have not maximized their strategy and/or information gathering (i.e. some voters are at a systemic disadvantage that has nothing to do with their preferences).
Condorcet methods, on the other hand, select the Condorcet winner by definition for naive elections and Nash equilibriums. It would then stand to reason that these methods are less likely to focus on how voters maximize their vote and more on who the candidates are.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conversation crossed my mind again today. What I&#8217;d need to reconsider the benefits of range voting is hole in the following argument.</p><p><a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_criterion#Range_voting" rel="nofollow">Range voting has a Nash equilibrium at the Condorcet winner</a>. By definition, this requires perfect knowledge and strategy for all voters, an unrealistic expectation. Furthermore, if a Condorcet winner exists and is not selected by range voting, some voters have not maximized their strategy and/or information gathering (i.e. some voters are at a systemic disadvantage that has nothing to do with their preferences).</p><p>Condorcet methods, on the other hand, select the Condorcet winner by definition for naive elections and Nash equilibriums. It would then stand to reason that these methods are less likely to focus on how voters maximize their vote and more on who the candidates are.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: homunq</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-194</link> <dc:creator>homunq</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:47:32 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-194</guid> <description>I made a &lt;a href=&quot;http://wiki.electorama.com/wiki/Score_DSV&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;page about it on the electorama wiki&lt;/a&gt;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I made a <a
href="http://wiki.electorama.com/wiki/Score_DSV" rel="nofollow">page about it on the electorama wiki</a></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: acts_as_list</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link> <dc:creator>acts_as_list</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 03:13:51 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-190</guid> <description>Ted,
Ah yes! Here are some fun pictures of what you&#039;re talking about.
http://scorevoting.net/IEVS/Pictures.html
It can help to think of voters as positions on a map, and candidates as potential sites of some great new recreation center that everyone wants to have as close as possible to his home.
What voting method can voters use that will yield the location which is statistically closest to the centroid of the voter distribution?
Bayesian regret calculations say score voting.
Oh that also works if you move into n-dimensional issue space, instead of just 2d.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted,</p><p>Ah yes! Here are some fun pictures of what you&#8217;re talking about.<br
/> <a
href="http://scorevoting.net/IEVS/Pictures.html" rel="nofollow">http://scorevoting.net/IEVS/Pictures.html</a></p><p>It can help to think of voters as positions on a map, and candidates as potential sites of some great new recreation center that everyone wants to have as close as possible to his home.</p><p>What voting method can voters use that will yield the location which is statistically closest to the centroid of the voter distribution?</p><p>Bayesian regret calculations say score voting.</p><p>Oh that also works if you move into n-dimensional issue space, instead of just 2d.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brad Beattie</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-189</link> <dc:creator>Brad Beattie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 02:07:26 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-189</guid> <description>&lt;ol&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;em&gt;Condorcet aggregate functions are more complicated than range voting&#039;s.&lt;/em&gt; Agreed, with the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/posts/superfluous-simplicity-in-aggregate-functions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fridge caveat&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;em&gt;Rating ballots are more expressive than preferential ballots&lt;/em&gt;. Not notably. I think we could agree that a rating ballot for &lt;em&gt;n&lt;/em&gt; candidates isn&#039;t more expressive with a range to 1..&lt;em&gt;m&lt;/em&gt; where &lt;em&gt;m&lt;/em&gt; &gt; &lt;em&gt;n&lt;/em&gt;. So if we&#039;re just talking 1..&lt;em&gt;n&lt;/em&gt; rating ballots, there&#039;s a decent, if not 1-to-1, mapping with preferential ballots.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;em&gt;Range voting can be used in American voting machines.&lt;/em&gt; Moot for me as a Canadian.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;em&gt;Range voting satisfies the WDS-Condorcet winner criteria.&lt;/em&gt; Agreed, but this ignores tactical voting. With the Condorcet criterion, we can safely assume that votes in the theoretical two-candidate races (pairwise comparisons) aren&#039;t subject to tactical voting. With range voting, not so much.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;em&gt;The Condorcet winner criteria isn&#039;t really good.&lt;/em&gt; I&#039;m not convinced by the arguments. I understand them, I&#039;m just not convinced that it&#039;s a bad thing.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;em&gt;Condorcet systems are subject to tactical voting that can lead to bad results.&lt;/em&gt; All systems are, even range voting. &lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;
I got tired of reading at that point. I know it&#039;s not intended as proof by verbosity, but the lack of brevity makes the core arguments inaccessible. I really am open to the idea that range voting could be a better system than my current Condorcet preference. I just don&#039;t see it at the moment.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<ol><li><em>Condorcet aggregate functions are more complicated than range voting&#8217;s.</em> Agreed, with the <a
href="http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/posts/superfluous-simplicity-in-aggregate-functions/" rel="nofollow">fridge caveat</a>.</li><li><em>Rating ballots are more expressive than preferential ballots</em>. Not notably. I think we could agree that a rating ballot for <em>n</em> candidates isn&#8217;t more expressive with a range to 1..<em>m</em> where <em>m</em> &gt; <em>n</em>. So if we&#8217;re just talking 1..<em>n</em> rating ballots, there&#8217;s a decent, if not 1-to-1, mapping with preferential ballots.</li><li><em>Range voting can be used in American voting machines.</em> Moot for me as a Canadian.</li><li><em>Range voting satisfies the WDS-Condorcet winner criteria.</em> Agreed, but this ignores tactical voting. With the Condorcet criterion, we can safely assume that votes in the theoretical two-candidate races (pairwise comparisons) aren&#8217;t subject to tactical voting. With range voting, not so much.</li><li><em>The Condorcet winner criteria isn&#8217;t really good.</em> I&#8217;m not convinced by the arguments. I understand them, I&#8217;m just not convinced that it&#8217;s a bad thing.</li><li><em>Condorcet systems are subject to tactical voting that can lead to bad results.</em> All systems are, even range voting. </li></ol><p>I got tired of reading at that point. I know it&#8217;s not intended as proof by verbosity, but the lack of brevity makes the core arguments inaccessible. I really am open to the idea that range voting could be a better system than my current Condorcet preference. I just don&#8217;t see it at the moment.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brad Beattie</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-188</link> <dc:creator>Brad Beattie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:11:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-188</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;That’s why I like score DSV – basically, score voting renormalized to the smith set.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Could you provide an example of this? I&#039;m curious to see it in action.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>That’s why I like score DSV – basically, score voting renormalized to the smith set.</p></blockquote><p>Could you provide an example of this? I&#8217;m curious to see it in action.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: homunq</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-187</link> <dc:creator>homunq</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:03:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-187</guid> <description>I think score voting is one of the best solutions available. But it&#039;s simply not true that there&#039;s no possible downside versus approval. If one ideological group is more strategic, that group will gain a significant advantage. This is much much less of a possibility with approval. That&#039;s why I like score DSV - basically, score voting renormalized to the smith set.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think score voting is one of the best solutions available. But it&#8217;s simply not true that there&#8217;s no possible downside versus approval. If one ideological group is more strategic, that group will gain a significant advantage. This is much much less of a possibility with approval. That&#8217;s why I like score DSV &#8211; basically, score voting renormalized to the smith set.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brad Beattie</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-186</link> <dc:creator>Brad Beattie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:56:57 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-186</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Obviously, both reforms are a gigantic improvement over plurality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That&#039;s the key right there. So long as we have &lt;em&gt;some&lt;/em&gt; kind of electoral reform that improves representation, I don&#039;t quite care what it is. It&#039;s likely that STV has the largest body of support in Vancouver due to its familiarity. There are problems with STV, but there are problems with any voting system. The question should probably be &quot;what can we plausibly transition to given the current situation?&quot; It&#039;s a highly contextual question.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Obviously, both reforms are a gigantic improvement over plurality.</p></blockquote><p>That&#8217;s the key right there. So long as we have <em>some</em> kind of electoral reform that improves representation, I don&#8217;t quite care what it is. It&#8217;s likely that STV has the largest body of support in Vancouver due to its familiarity. There are problems with STV, but there are problems with any voting system. The question should probably be &#8220;what can we plausibly transition to given the current situation?&#8221; It&#8217;s a highly contextual question.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: homunq</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-185</link> <dc:creator>homunq</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:51:35 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-185</guid> <description>It&#039;s true, score voting is better than condorcet for any *given* and *random* mix of strategic and honest voters. But, since the circumstances under which strategy successfully improves one&#039;s results are much broader for score voting, it is plausible that it would not lead to the same proportion of strategy. Also, there is a real possibility that one group of voters would be more strategy-prone, in which case it could give much worse results. Thus, it is still very much an open question which is better, and probably the answer depends somewhat on circumstances.
(My personal favorite method is a score-condorcet hybrid which I call Score DSV).
Obviously, both reforms are a gigantic improvement over plurality.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true, score voting is better than condorcet for any *given* and *random* mix of strategic and honest voters. But, since the circumstances under which strategy successfully improves one&#8217;s results are much broader for score voting, it is plausible that it would not lead to the same proportion of strategy. Also, there is a real possibility that one group of voters would be more strategy-prone, in which case it could give much worse results. Thus, it is still very much an open question which is better, and probably the answer depends somewhat on circumstances.</p><p>(My personal favorite method is a score-condorcet hybrid which I call Score DSV).</p><p>Obviously, both reforms are a gigantic improvement over plurality.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dale Sheldon</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-184</link> <dc:creator>Dale Sheldon</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:32:40 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-184</guid> <description>While their performance under tactical situations is identical, score has higher potential performance gains than approval does as you allow for more sincere voters.  So best case, you gain a lot; worst case, you lose nothing.
Now, I don&#039;t know if your an IRV fan but in case anyone reading is:
Interestingly, tactical IRV and tactical plurality have the same performance as well; but IRV has a higer potential than plurality as you allow for more sincere voters.
So if you&#039;re down on score because it&#039;s tactically identical to approval, you should be MORE down on IRV, because it&#039;s tactically identical to plurality, and plurality is much worse than approval.
To answer your next question, which is &quot;But IRV voters will be more likely to be sincere!&quot; I would say that 1.) that&#039;s not a question 2.) there&#039;s no evidence to support that and 3.) even if it&#039;s true, Bayesian regret simulations show approval out-performing IRV even with a 50% honesty handicap (http://rangevoting.org/StratHonMix.html); so even on the off-chance you&#039;re &quot;right&quot; about the enhanced sincerity, you&#039;re still wrong about IRV.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While their performance under tactical situations is identical, score has higher potential performance gains than approval does as you allow for more sincere voters.  So best case, you gain a lot; worst case, you lose nothing.</p><p>Now, I don&#8217;t know if your an IRV fan but in case anyone reading is:</p><p>Interestingly, tactical IRV and tactical plurality have the same performance as well; but IRV has a higer potential than plurality as you allow for more sincere voters.</p><p>So if you&#8217;re down on score because it&#8217;s tactically identical to approval, you should be MORE down on IRV, because it&#8217;s tactically identical to plurality, and plurality is much worse than approval.</p><p>To answer your next question, which is &#8220;But IRV voters will be more likely to be sincere!&#8221; I would say that 1.) that&#8217;s not a question 2.) there&#8217;s no evidence to support that and 3.) even if it&#8217;s true, Bayesian regret simulations show approval out-performing IRV even with a 50% honesty handicap (<a
href="http://rangevoting.org/StratHonMix.html" rel="nofollow">http://rangevoting.org/StratHonMix.html</a>); so even on the off-chance you&#8217;re &#8220;right&#8221; about the enhanced sincerity, you&#8217;re still wrong about IRV.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brad Beattie</title><link>http://cognitivesandbox.com/posts/condorcet-and-later-no-harm/comment-page-1/#comment-183</link> <dc:creator>Brad Beattie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:59:13 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.cognitivesandbox.com/?p=2010#comment-183</guid> <description>I guess the next question is if range voting tactically reduces to approval voting (aka RV{0,1}), why not just use approval voting?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the next question is if range voting tactically reduces to approval voting (aka RV{0,1}), why not just use approval voting?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
